I highly doubt the left will do anything uncivil. How can they win back the country? Is it too late?
Americans HAVE their country, this is what they want, this is what they voted for. Stop treating Americans as if this is something pressed upon them. They chose this. Now they will live with the consequences.
Who knows. Apparently half my country is full of legitimately hateful people who just want to watch the people they don’t like suffer.
How the fuck do we come back from that? Honestly, are we even worth redeeming?
For me, this is it. This is when America died. If you’re still “proud” to be an American after this, you’re brain-damaged.
Win it back from who?
Other Americans who made this choice know who Trump is and thats what they want.
The Rich have always owned this country. No one is taking anything from them. Its illegal to try.
I think that first you have to start by admitting two things:
- Americans did win their/your election
- Americans have l9st faith in their democratic institutions
After that, you can look at why the Democratic parties fail to appeal to Americans, and try to reform them.
If you go outside of democracy to gain democracy, then you probably lose what’s left of your democracy.
Come to Australia mate
We will send our rejects to America in exchange
Yes. It is too late. This was the inevitable outcome. Sooner or later.
Dems here are like UK Labor. They’re a right wing party who occasionally cosplays as a left leaning one when they need to. They stand as the bullwark against any form of left wing populism. And they’ve done their job to the letter.
Our economy is almost entirely debt driven financialization and gambling. There is another subprime mortgage crisis brewing. Exactly the same as the one in '08, except way bigger. And our economy is far more precarious than it was then.
Balkanize.
Regardless of your views on the Orange Grifter / Gift from God (delete as applicable) this question is fundamentally flawed. “How do we build bridges, find common ground and begin to win over our fellow US citizens who have, in my opinion, made a poor and misinformed political choice that could have terrible consequences for them, our country and the world at large?” might be a more appropriate opener. I understand you’re upset, scared, desolate etc but your language comes off as belligerent and aggressive. Perhaps soften your tone and be more receptive to others’ concerns. For the record, I’ve got no flies on this turd as I’m not from the US, nor do I live there. Good luck.
Winning back? They just won it.
Violence. There will not be a second option.
Feel free to wait until the camps start, liberals. That will be the “civil” course.
Tough question. I don’t think the descendants of european, asian and african settlers are going back home any time soon.
Democracy is just the tyranny of the majority.
I think that most of the Americans want this, even if people on the outside do not understand. So in that sense they are right now winning back their country, as confusing as it might sound.
Normally in Democracy the majority or popular vote wins, however due to the electoral college America has, it doesnt necessarily mean the majority voted for the winner. This was the case for Bush, and some other moments in the past.
But Trump won the popular vote this time
FYI: it looks like Trump is going to win the popular vote on this one as well.
How in the fuck.
Like what drives a majority of Americans to vote for a demented toddler. It’s insane.
As a kid I always wondered how on Earth did Hitler ever make anyone follow himself, how did those people not realise. Turns out a majority of people are just fucking morons.
Yep and the slow gutting of the education system isn’t making it any better.
You have an entire generation coming of voting age who are rabid Trump supporters. They don’t care about policies or democracy or public institutions. They don’t care about healthcare, social securities, or the stability of the economy.
They don’t care about any of the things that have been built up through generations. They lack critical thinking ability.
The recipe works. If you make dumb kids they will vote for dumb people. It works so well that part of the future plan for a trump presidency is to get rid of the department of education. Solidifying the Republican party indefinitely.
Without critical thinking and with mass media it’s so easy to say every problem that people deal with is because the “other side” made it so. Even if the other side has been doing everything possible to achieve the opposite.
Americans aren’t special. They’re just as vulnerable to fascism as anybody else.
The MAGATs might as well be wearing brownshirts and saluting like Mussolini.
Blaming young people is up their with blaming immigrants and “gays” ect for [insert topic]. I would be very surprised if this was the case.
I think it’s a little more nuanced.
They don’t blame young people. They blame lack of education.
You sure about that?
You have an entire generation coming of voting age who are rabid Trump supporters.
It goes on.
Anecodtally (at this point, this is all these discussions are), I think that Apathy, fear campaigns or outright money and campaigns ect become powerful levers where voting is non-mandatory.
For all practical purposes, about 30% of people are unfeeling morons - basically psychopaths. That’s the number that consistently opposes abortion, for instance. Add to that all the dumbasses who don’t know any better (the undecideds on any extremely obvious moral issue), et voila. That’s how you get slavery, nationalism, genocide, theocracy, you name it.
Unless people are willing to screen for psychopathy and remove it from the gene pool, the human species will keep fucking around until it finds out. Might be nuclear apocalypse or environmental collapse, but at this rate it’s inevitable.
Can we please not start arguing in favor of eugenics?
“Oh no, we wouldn’t want the psychopaths with the broken brains not to exist. That’s eugenics.”
You’re all fucking idiots.
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I used to think Ukrainian politicians were fucking clowns. I guess we got outclowned.
The rise of the NSDAP has been studied quite a bit. Also, the psychological aspects are really interesting. Basically normal people can make all of this possible as long as the conditions are just right.
Hate.
Well they’re making plenty more of that to go around
There are many leftists and minorities that have “voted strategically” time and time and time again only for things to get worse and worse.
This kind of disenfranchisement leads to apathy and low turnout.
We are told from a young age that our vote matters, and then when we are older we are told you can only vote for red fascist or blue fascist and many choose not to participate.
There are more who did not vote than who voted for Trump. This is not what the majority wants, but with the system as it is, it is not possible for the majority to voice what they actually genuinely want and have a chance to get it.
The votes do not have to be rigged at the ballot box for voting as a whole system to be rigged.
Americans voted in Reagan twice. They also elected Bush twice. This is not surprising.
American politics isnt about choosing the best candidate its about choosing the one u hate least. The dems spent too much time playing identity politics that they forgot to play actuall politics.
Non mandatory voting wouldnt help, being that its more susceptible to eroding a merit process from campaigns of fear or otherwise.
It’s the low turn out. Too many of us are nonparticipants
And I was so loving Lina Khan’s FTC,
askingamong other things…Edit: autocorrect
And Harris has done worse than Biden in every county in America.
Not every state. Every county.
Perhaps these two factors contributed to this:
- Harris is a woman and maybe some Americans just don’t want a female president
- Harris maybe leaned too hard on celebrity endorsements, at a time when Americans are feeling worse-off financially, which perhaps made her seem out of touch to middle America
It’s actually incredible how they tried to copy Hilary Clinton’s campaign tactics of endorsements and warnings about Trump.
That didn’t work last time. Why would it work now?
True. Maybe Harris should have focused more on working class endorsements, union endorsements, etc. I dunno.
Or just talk about her policies: https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/50802-harris-vs-trump-on-the-issues-whose-policies-do-voters-prefer
While I’m sure the statement “some Americans just don’t want a female president” is true, I think the vast majority of them were going to vote Republican basically no matter what.
To paraphrase the conversation that took place on the left:
“The DNC isn’t doing well among young straight white men and it’s getting worse. Barack Obama polled at 66% favorable among that demographic in 2008, and that number has fallen every election until now Harris is polling in the low 40s. There’s a lot of them, and we’re losing them.” A hot mic caught Kamala herself saying exactly that. “We’re losing men.”
Responds the feminists, “Look at the pathetic men throwing a fit because they’re not fully in charge. Something something privilege something something patriarchy. Be better.” I’ll note this didn’t come from Kamala’s campaign, it came from the faceless rabble. The people who said “Yeah no we should probably also talk about issues that are important to men” got shouted down. So white men see that as “The people who vote for this candidate hate me no matter what, and yet they demand my vote no matter what.”
Kamala started this race as Biden’s running mate, then Biden showed up in “mummified during the 6th dynasty of the Old Kingdom” condition at that first debate. No time for a primary, Biden’s out and Kamala’s in. Now she needs a running mate. They put out an APB for a white guy preferably from the south but the midwest will do. There was some brief discussion of North Carolina governor Roy Cooper, well-liked lame duck democrat from a former confederate state, ticks all those boxes. But we landed on Tim Walz. As far as I can tell he was a genuinely solid choice; I’d never heard of him before he was announced as a short runner for Harris’ running mate. Every headline I read about the guy was some new and exciting way he was a saint. Almost suspiciously so. He’s still the only one on the campaign trail who I’d lend a lawnmower to.
Problem #1: We heard the APB as it went out. Here’s my turn to get shouted down: This works on women, muslims, and a significant number of black men, because those demographics have an automatic in-group dynamic. You see posts talking about “My boyfriend was talking to me at the gym and a woman I’ve never met before comes up to pretend to be my friend. I see u gurl.” So both Hilary and Kamala had the white chick vote sewn up just for existing while female. Obama, to a slightly lesser extent, had a similar effect among black men. That doesn’t work on white guys, or at least, the white guys that does work on are very reliable Republican voters.
But, credit where credit is due, Walz seems like a solid guy. If they hadn’t announced out loud they picked him to identity pander I wouldn’t have noticed.
Problem #2: The next time I saw Walz, he was on a commercial cosplaying as a straight white man. “Governor Walz here in a camouflage hat with a dog. Watch me perform a minor repair on an antique SUV.” They ran ads that literally said “I bet you’re tired of hearing how much white guys suck. I mean, some of them do…” That same ad says “They’re really talkin’ to guys like us.” No they weren’t.
They ran ads talking about “I’m a REAL MAN and I’m MAN enough to vote for a WOMAN.”
I didn’t see Tim Walz talking about “The boys who played on my football team are struggling to afford homes. They’re choosing not to get married or have children because for an increasing number of young men it’s just not in the cards.” No I heard a doughy guy dressed like a cowboy say “I eat carburetors for breakfast.”
Among a male loneliness epidemic they ran an ad that said “Women will withhold sex unless you vote for Harris.”
Obama polled well among young men because he engaged with them in their spaces. At the time, Facebook and Twitter were where the young people hung out, and he showed up there to talk to us, which was a welcome change from George W. “An internet” Bush. Obama campaigned on messages of hope and progress. I don’t recall Kamala herself really doing much actual reach-out, and her campaign messaging was either lazy attempts at pandering or naked feminist grievance airing. “We need you to show up and vote for us for the second decade in a row even though we’ve done nothing at all to measurably improve your lives in that time, when we had the power to do so we pissed it down your leg, and we’re okay saying out loud that we thoroughly hate you” has proven to be a losing campaign message.
Turns out there are more straight white men than feminists and queers in the United States voter pool. Hilary proved it and Kamala proved it, pandering exclusively to the former while demanding the support of the former will lose an election to worn out diaper hitler.
Fair points. Biden won enough men in 2020 though. Maybe Kamala was just seen as too leftist or too focused on women’s issues or something… I’m not saying she was those things, but maybe some people saw her that way.
If you look back at her primary in 2020, she was.
Hard to wash that off with some last minute recanting, like with fracking and other such campaign claims.
Her hand was tipped as to her ideal term in office 4 years ago, I’m surprised Trump didn’t use that shit in attack ads given how much more stereotypically progressive she was then.
Personally I called it in when a clip of hers saying “we’ve got to get woke” (not sure about the wording but the word woke was used positively) from some talk show aimed at black people from this year came out.
You need to live in a parallel dimension to think that word is not absolutely fucking nuclear waste in the political discourse rn.
Whether it’s 48 or 52 % is an immaterial difference. Every other American who voted, voted for Trump. The rest don’t seem to care either way. He has very broad popular assent and is as popular as Harris give or take a margin of error.
Everyone is lasered-focused on the EC because it makes all the difference for the practicalities, but if one is to make a broad judgement of whether Trump won fair and square the answer is “yeah, mostly”. Further proof is the fact that the House is probably going to be his as well.
Americans now bear the collective responsibility for the horrors of the next 4(+?) years. Do not make the mistake of blaming the popular will of outright fascism on institutional failures, because institutions didn’t force half of Americans to vote for the fascist, again.
I’ll wait 72 hours before settling with it, in case any shenanigans were involved. I expect it’s legitimate, but I want that window open if it’s needed.
Trump is winning the popular vote by a pretty decent margin. The electoral college isn’t the issue here.
They haven’t finished counting that’s why. Rural areas are faster to count and skew conservative.
A republican hasn’t won the popular vote in 20 years. Trump is projected to win but like last time he’ll lose the popular vote and win by virtue of the electoral college.
All the projections I’m seeing him show him almost certainly winning the popular vote. There’s a gap of 6 million votes and almost every state is over 90% reported in. That gap is going to likely shrink a bit, but unfortunately it almost certainly won’t be enough for him to even lose the popular vote.
Lets face it, we’re (assuming you’re american) apparently just a country of facists. It looks like GOP is going to have majority in both houses too so here comes project 2025 I guess.
Sorry bud, not a yank. You have my sympathies though.
If it turns out that he does indeed win the popular vote then yeah I’m sorry for your loss. A nest of at least 50% fascists or fascist enablers.
Heart aches for those that did their civic duty and yet have to suffer the repercussions :(
It looks like turnout is way down compared to last election. Trump is pulling about the same amount he did last time ( maybe a few million down, but there are still results to get). Harris is currently down 15M from where Biden was.
Trump’s support is no larger than it was last time. Harris’ supporters just didn’t show up
Harris’ supporters just didn’t show up
Anyone who didn’t show up is not a Harris supporter.
Wasn’t he ahead in 2016 around this time, but then once all was said and done he was a few mil behind?
u̇nfoṙtcėnetlı, H ſımz t bı ƿinıŋ ð pȯpyulṙ vot æz ƿel.
spoiler
Unfortunately, he seems to be winning the popular vote as well.
I believe the states responsible for those silly outcomes have since passed laws to prevent it happening again.
Could be wrong, but I listened to a podcast last week with an American professor who’s pretty much written the book, explaining the history of the Electoral College and how it really works. I’m sure he said those states since fixed those loopholes.
Either way, the damage is done today. Another four years of stupidity in charge.
This is not correct. The electoral college is exactly as susceptible to giving the win to the person with fewer votes as it was in 2000 and 2016. It’s also not an issue that’s due to any state in particular and is not an issue that can be solved by individual state action. The NPVIC would fix it but requires the cooperation of many states and is not in effect, and has stalled pretty hard in recent years.
Nah - it’s at least partly correct.
Faithless electors have never once affected the outcome of a US election.
Seriously - the whole thing is such a befuddling mess to us non-Americans.
How exactly can one win the popular vote but not the actual election? From the outside, the reporting I’ve seen always talks about the faithless elector problem (not in those words - just in describing the problems). Is it more to do with how many votes (electors) each state gets, based on population size?
That’s it, yes - each state gets as many electoral votes as it has congressmen, including senators. Most states award all of their electoral votes to whoever wins the state, with no proportionality to it at all - only two states (Nebraska and Maine, neither one large) do anything proportional with their votes.
With a system like that it’s easier to see how things can end up with the less popular candidate winning - they can, for example, sneak by with 50.1% of the vote in just enough states to win, but bomb it out with 20% of the vote in all the other states. That’s an extreme example specifically for the purpose of illustration, but less extreme versions of that are usually what happens.
The electoral votes also aren’t distributed entirely fairly - the number of electoral votes per person tends to be larger for less populated states. The less populated states also tend to be Republican states. So in a very real sense, each person’s vote counts for “more” in those states, and “less” in states with high populations. I don’t believe it’s really possible to fix this problem without vastly increasing the number of electoral votes, but congress currently has its size capped at 535 members for what I consider not very good reasons.
Yes, the whole system is trash from the ground up. But much of its structure is defined in the constitution itself, which is very difficult to change.
You think laws matter to the privileged?
No, there is a concerted effort by conservatives to use voter suppression to subvert the will of the majority in the US.
conservatives are clawing back the country right now by hook and by crook.
can’t go on forever, but I don’t know which is going to last longer: the country or the aging frightened conservatives willing to subvert democracy to hang on to control.
Trump wins the popular vote and lemmy is still in denial.
I don’t get it, what are you in denial about?
Isn’t just the aging ones sadly. Lots of young people, especially young men, went for Trump. Andrew Tate has taught them well.
progressive policies are annually more popular and conservative policies and election results like 2016 and 2024 are won mainly by the old guard funding and utilizing their careful network of voting interference and collusion.
Andrew Tate is a vile exception amongst younger generations, not the rule.
I think that most of the Americans want this
Maybe, but none of the facts directly support this.
There have been large campaigns to disenfranchise several types of voters for decades in the country. The Electoral College was designed to be unfair to appease Slave states. Voter turnout is abysmal, only about 35% of eligible citizens vote. Out of those turnout is usually around the same percentage. The highest turnout recently was 2020 only because mail in voting was expanded so dramatically, and even then it was only 67% of registered voters, so it was still only 67% of that original 37% of eligible voters. So with the highest recent turnout, we’re looking at about 25% of eligible citizens actually voting.
I believe that the 67% number for the 2020 election is of eligible voters and not registered voters. While turnout is low, it’s not 25% low.
It was ~67% of eligible voters that were registered to vote. Over 94% of registered voters actually voted.
Dafuk are you talking about? Voter turnout is 67% of all eligible voters. It’s highest since it’s ever been. And Trump won the popular vote. At least look at the facts instead of crying “stolen election”.
That’s what the Germans thought in 1933
Democracy really is the worst form of government, just not as bad as all the others…
Unfortunately in such polarized times like now, even though majority wants this, the ammount of people for which this is unacceptable is only slightly less than “the majority”. And besides, I believe a big part of “the majority” is just gullible enough to be persuaded they want this while it actually goes against their interests
And if the other candidate won, the other half would’ve been in the same state of “this is unacceptable”. Solutions?
Cuz lemmy seems to think if their party wins it’s all good and if the other wins it’s the end of the world. While in reality it seems there’s a 50-50 split with each side equally hating the other.
It is the limitation of democracy and why it is the worst (except all the others) - because it allows this.
How to fix this? These would be a good start: don’t polarize the society like this and create us vs. them mentality. In place of power hungry populists have people in charge who want the best for the country. Don’t enable fascists - they never should make it this far. Respect other people. Invest in education so people understand these basics.
And this is not just about US. It’s scary that this is wherr us got because they are such a big player on the world stage
The whole lemmy has been essentially about “us vs them” for the last few months. With zero discourse tolerated, only one opinion being allowed: trump bad, republicans fascist.
So, if you worry about polarization, you guys are the biggest echo chamber I’ve seen to date.
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Something can not be the worst and just not as bad as the others.
It’s a famous quote. The contradiction is intentional. It means democracy has a lot of problems and often looks terrible. However when you step back and consider the alternatives they are worse.
Take it up with Winston Churchil - I was just paraphrasing his quote.
The point is democracy is terrible, but we don’t have anything better.
vote against this and save us all from this idiocy.
Nope. There was just more people lined up to vote for more idiocy. We failed the world. I’d say I’m sorry, but I don’t think that’ll help. This is America.
America needs to focus on decentralizing power. That way, when the other side wins, they can’t do much damage. Biggest problem America faces is too much centralized control.
As an American, I expected most Americans to be at least semi-rational and to recognize what a threat to democracy and our way of life that Trump is. I expected most Republicans to just vote for him out of reflex, but otherwise the rest of America would rise up in our hour of need to vote against this and save us all from this idiocy.
Nope. There was just more people lined up to vote for more idiocy. We failed the world. I’d say I’m sorry, but I don’t think that’ll help. This is America.
Agree, and sadly he won the popular vote too (so far). It’s really bleak how many people don’t vote at all.
They all voted with their wallets. It’s really simple. That’s how these people are able to come into power.
Except Trump isn’t here to help their wallets.
If they could read they would be very upset you said that
but…but…but…he said he would fix it! Sure he didn’t say how but he would, right? Right?!?
Trusting a con man…
The frustrating thing is that Trump didn’t even get more votes this election than he did last election. There wasn’t a bunch of new Trump voters that came out of the woodwork and turned the tide. He was absolutely beatable. He only won because 15 million of the people who voted for Biden last election just didn’t bother this time.
A lot of progressive people also moved out of red states after all of the different nonsense happening in them. We won’t know until the 2030 census if they actually do that accurately unlike the 2020 census.
Democratic voters just aren’t dependable, or the causes that Democrats tend to champion don’t provide them any benefits. Yes, it’s often the right thing to do to champion their rights or causes, but when the time comes and their help is needed, they’re seemingly nowhere to be found because things apparently weren’t interesting enough.
I think this is going to be the end of the USA as we know it. After this period, democracy will be significantly impacted.
The western world as a whole should be terrified. There has been a sharp dip towards conservatism that will only accelerate with Trump back at the helm in the US. Brexit didn’t occur in a vacuum.
Though this isn’t about conservatism, is it? Trump doesn’t like democracy and half of the things that shaped the USA. I mean there is some overlap but he should be opposed by any sane conservative. I think it’s more a dip towards fascism or something else.
Can be a bit of both. Everything is prompted by a desire to return to the “before” times. For Trump’s supporters, that is a hypothetical, undefined time when America was “great”. For the Brexiters in the UK, that was the pre-EU period when Britain was a global empire. For the conservatives in Russia, it is the yearning for the USSR days.
Fair enough. I always hope we’ll move towards a better future… And not backwards. But you’re right. You pick some random time in history and then make up some policies that supposedly get you back to that place. And an additional psychological factor is, most of us had our best time when we were young, life was easier, less work and less consequence. So we might want that back instead of our current, more complex life.
It is too late for a while now. Try to be safe, even if that means moving.
And move where?!
Pretty dystopic that you post this quote, because it is doctored to include catholics. Niemöller’s wife explicitly stated that he never included them in his poem. Source: https://martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de/martin-niemoeller/was-sagte-niemoeller-wirklich
Martin Niemöllers zweite Frau (seit 1971), Sibylle von Sell schreibt dazu am 23.4.2000 in h-holocaust https://www.h-net.org/~holoweb/ :.“ The trouble with Martin Niemoeller’s „famous quotation“ is that he never wrote it down – which enabled so many hitchhikers over the years to „put themselves on the waggon“. In his „Confession of Guilt“ (as he called it himself: Schuldbekenntnis in German) the Communists came first, then the Trade Unionists and then the Socialists and then the Jews. NO ONE ELSE.”
Just be grateful if you’re not in one of the first groups. I spoke up as loudly as I could.
If I had that answer I would be happy to share.
The problem is that nowhere is safe now. I’m Canadian, and I wish I had somewhere to go. And just imagine how the poor sods in Palestine, Ukraine, and so many other suffering countries, are feeling right now.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Vladimir Putin’s armies weren’t occupying large swaths of Eastern Europe by the end of this term.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Vladimir Putin’s armies weren’t occupying large swaths of Eastern Europe by the end of this term.
And Russia will use, what? Tanks from the Cold War?! There have been many reports from professional defense intel groups and countries that report that Russia has been struggling to keep fighting the invasion of Ukraine. They’ve had to resort to asking North Korea to send thousands of troops to fight in Ukraine. With the weapons that the EU, Australia, Britain, and the US have been sending them, Russia is going to have a tremendously difficult time fighting back. Let alone, invading another country.
There’s a theory going around that China might take action and ‘take back’ what they claim to have been their territory from the early 1800s. Either they capture Serbia as a whole, southern Serbia, or a large portion of Eastern Russia. Which might look like the northern point of Lake Baikal to Uda Gulf or the push further and take Taul Bay. The southern part of the Kamchatka peninsula would be advantageous to them. The US and others would have a harder time “controlling” China’s fleet of ships if they had ports and bases up there as well.
I can only hold onto fool’s faith for so long, that the world doesn’t experience another major war.
