To be fair the arts & crafts movement priced itself out of the mainstream.
***edit: why tf am I being downvoted for sharing objective fact about the Arts & Crafts movements at the turn of the century? While it transitioned into more of an upscale art in Britain, it did transition into more mainstream mission style in America, yet ultimately World War 1 ended the Arts & Crafts movement in both nations. Eff you turds for downvoting objective fact you anti-intellectual turds. I’m as progressive and anti-corporate as it gets, you undereducated morons.
***edit 2: the parent comment to mine from iamnotafish with 109 upvotes is unequivocally wrong. British/American society did have those problems in the mid-1800s. The Arts & Crafts movement directly intentionally arose as a humanistic pushback against that exact sort of corporate dehumanization.
So here we have an example of a common .ml and others of the tankie triad technique. Come in, make a big fuss about something and the evils of capital society, then bail when they get pushback, in this case even deleting the account.
There is still plenty of room for more artistry in the products we buy. However, companies would rather report 3.01 EPS and have happy shareholders and less happy customers than 2.98 EPS and unhappy shareholders and happy customers, because they didn’t want to spend a few extra pennies here and there.
That artistry still exists but it costs more. The “products we buy” are cheap mass maufactued products that sell to a broad market. It’s not just a pennies here and there difference.
Although, that can be a reason cheap products become basically disposable and that’s completely lame, agreed.
I 100% guarantee that kind of company would lose customers doing that. Other kinds do add more and more stuff. Compare modern smartphones and cars to older ones.
For all it’s flaws, the present economy is actually very good at making exactly what people want to buy.
the present economy is actually very good at making exactly what people want to buy
Don’t take this personally, but that’s bullshit.
Look at cars and phones as an example. Manufacturers decide what the customers want and then push it on us. No one asked for a phone that doesn’t have a replaceable battery, doesn’t have a headphone jack, has microbezels, is covered in glass so if you drop it you have to buy a new one, or you have to buy a case to wrap it in. No one asked for a car that is sending all of your data to the manufacturer, has a huge-ass touch screen that can’t be customized in any way, has features that don’t work while the car is in motion, lets your insurance company know when you accelerate too quickly, and plays ads when you are at a stoplight.
I’ve been looking at getting a new washer and even those are terrible and require connecting the appliance to a wireless network and installing an app on your phone to get full functionality.
There are VERY few manufacturers of anything out there that actually give a shit about what the consumer really wants, and instead will provide the minimum needed to get the consumer to buy while providing the maximum return for investors.
Okay, so this got long, but only because you made so many separate points.
No one asked for a phone that doesn’t have a replaceable battery
Pretty much necessary for waterproofing, makes the design a bit simpler, and most people DGAF about e-waste.
has microbezels, is covered in glass so if you drop it you have to buy a new one, or you have to buy a case to wrap it in.
All aesthetic features that are popular, even if people aren’t aware of where the wow comes from exactly.
The headphone jack is the only forced example here.
No one asked for a car that is sending all of your data to the manufacturer
You’re not the customer, and most people have no problem with being the product. Which is really dumb of them, but true.
has a huge-ass touch screen that can’t be customized in any way,
It’s still a new enough trend that I’m not sure where it sits, but it does come with the advantage of displaying whatever menus you want really directly.
has features that don’t work while the car is in motion,
Liability, I assume.
lets your insurance company know when you accelerate too quickly, and plays ads when you are at a stoplight.
Again, you’re not the customer.
I’ve been looking at getting a new washer and even those are terrible and require connecting the appliance to a wireless network and installing an app on your phone to get full functionality.
Ditto. Most consumers either don’t know/care or actually like whatever shitty “smart” feature. And aren’t tracking their cybersecurity very closely.
In a nutshell:
There are VERY few manufacturers of anything out there that actually give a shit about what the consumer Bob Robertson and CanadaPlus really want,
I don’t want to create an entire thread arguing because I believe that you value your viewpoints as much as I value mine, but I think this might be the main area where our viewpoints diverge because when I’m buying something, then yes, I am the customer. And when I buy something then my expectation is that I will then own that something and I will do with it as I please.
Yeah. That wasn’t a normative statement, just a descriptive one. We should be the customer, we just economically aren’t. I bet you and me buy the same kind of stuff.
The points I was arguing against in OP are that everything is built worse than it used to be, and that it’s because some group can just decide so unilaterally for personal gain. Some stuff is worse, some stuff is better, but it’s true that regulations haven’t kept pace with technology this century.
Nothing you typed is true. Bob Robertson is right about every point. And I will piggyback off of him and continue to prove him right and you wrong if necessary.
Nothing is being produced for the consumer anymore. We are the Mark. I broke a little plastic gear for turning the chute on my snowblower and cannot buy a 30¢ chunk of replacement plastic. They told us the internet being recategorized as a luxury service instead of a utility service would improve service. It’s gone up in price 5-10x in the fifteen years since, Sucka. Everything is trying to transition you to a subscription service so you will own nothing and be happy, Sucka. Stop carrying water as a useful idiot, Sucka.
lol…yes, that is why enshitification is a word. Why a car manufacturer adding buttons back to their next model again made headlines. Also, try Chipotle today vs Chipotle 10 years ago, 20 years ago. sorry, but calling bullshit on this one.
That’s not really a fair rubric. If they add unnecessary stuff it’s bloat, if they don’t it’s cynical cost cutting.
If you were buying your own Chipotle 20 years ago I assume you know what I mean about old cars with manual everything and maybe a radio. The economy cars of the 20th century aren’t even around for me to experience anymore, because they literally fell apart!
I’m still driving mine and would be very reluctant to swap it for a modern enshittified car. I sometimes think of homebrewing my next car (DIY EV conversion of an older ICE car) rather than put up with any manufacturer’s offerings. Who knows.
All I said is that they build what people will buy. Sometimes, people are short-sighted about what they buy. And maybe more importantly, landfilling is totally free in most cities, and externalities are not something markets handle well. That’s also why we’re making one-use containers out of our most permanent materials.
People absolutely did that stuff way back when, too. Incandescent lightbulbs are a debated but famous example.
Yeah, exactly. The early ones lasted a really long time. The debate is about how necessary making them shorter lived was exactly. It definitely happened though, and definitely did so before any of us were born.
There’s probably an even older example, but commercial history before 1850 is pretty niche.
Bob Robertson explains my point better than I feel like typing at this time lol. He’s spot on. Also, I worked as a project manager for the product owners that make these types of decisions. Everything I relayed was from experience. Edit: I will add, look at people like musk that proudly proclaim “i do no market research” and then look at the cybertruck.
Eh, it was a bit too detailed honestly. I doubt that was deliberate, though, and I did respond in full.
Musk is an outlier. He also bought Twitter and basically put it through a woodchipper, including getting rid of the very well-recognised brand and executing a domain transition that left it semi-broken for months. Most CEOs and most boards have some semblance of sanity.
Hey friend, you bring up very good points, and i was making a broad generalization. But, did the arts & craft movement really price themselves out, or were they undercut by the same types of shenanigans that we see today by these evil corporations? We’re on the same side, let’s not be divisive.
Yes, there was broad appeal for fine handcrafted goods after the Industrial Revolution, so much that craftsmen were successful enough to make better livings selling higher-priced goods, just as it is today. It was a bit ironic that the Arts & Crafts movement started out “for the people / against industrialization” but soon became high-priced goods for the affluent.
Ah, ok. So, they could work on say, one big piece of something for a rich person and stretch it out for a year, versus doing 6-12 for people over the same period of time?
Yes, top craftsmen would get deeper into their craft for their own personal interests and their previous commercial success afforded them the luxury to become more like—or essentially—fine artists.
No legitimately you’re whining so much about fake internet points and it couldn’t have been after more than a downvote or 2. Just like…care less what other people think dude. It’s fake internet point. It doesn’t matter.
I had seven dislikes from stablegeniuses mad about objective history, go be smug n stablegenius somewhere else plz. I don’t care about dislikes, I’m pissed about straightup Idiocracy, frito.
I don’t know who tf you are but I’m guessing you’re a whiteboy midwit to assume you’re in any position in life to tell me how I should behave. Because you’re not in any position to tell me how to behave, stablegenius. Do better.
Come on guys, I looked at both of your comment histories and you both appear to be on the same side, please don’t argue. Also, Grass Cat, LandedGentry has a good point with calling everyone turds lol.
@[email protected] , are you also from the land of JD Vance? Saw a comment about CCW no longer being required in your state.
Eff you turds for downvoting objective fact you anti-intellectual turds. I’m as progressive and anti-corporate as it gets, you undereducated morons.
Lemmy can suck like that. If you post something that can be misconstrued outside of our tiny Overton window, you get downvotes. Lots and lots of downvotes.
***edit: why tf am I being downvoted for sharing objective fact about the Arts & Crafts movements at the turn of the century?
My guess is that it’s because Arts & Crafts is a foundational form of modernism and is thus kinda the opposite, stylistically speaking, of carving ornate feet like OP pictured.
Nah bro. In the US arts & crafts morphed into mission style, which was just straight flat planks at right angles for practical purposes, which I believe is what you are referencing. As I’d mentioned above, in Britain arts & crafts veered heavily toward the affluent with its high craftsmanship. Arts & Crafts also developed into the ornate art styles of Art Nouveau and Art Deco.
Some consider that it is the root of the Modern Style, a British expression of what later came to be called the Art Nouveau movement.[4] Others consider that it is the incarnation of Art Nouveau in England.[5]
The term Art Nouveau was first used in the 1880s in the Belgian journal L’Art Moderne to describe the work of Les Vingt, twenty painters and sculptors seeking reform through art. The name was popularized by the Maison de l’Art Nouveau (‘House of the New Art’), an art gallery opened in Paris in 1895 by the Franco-German art dealer Siegfried Bing. In Britain, the French term Art Nouveau was commonly used, while in France, it was often called by the term Style moderne (akin to the British term Modern Style), or Style 1900.[9] In France, it was also sometimes called Style Jules Verne (after the novelist Jules Verne), Style Métro (after Hector Guimard’s iron and glass subway entrances), Art Belle Époque, or Art fin de siècle.[10]
Art Nouveau is known by different names in different languages: Jugendstil in German, Stile Liberty in Italian, Modernisme in Catalan, and also known as the Modern Style in English.
Jfc your links agree with everything I’ve typed here. I know justabit about modern art movements. And that foot carving pictured in my opinion is strongly reminiscent of nouveau/deco sculpture and imagery.
I wouldn’t say they priced themselves out, it’s more that you can’t economy-of-scale a small business in your living room. You can’t beat Amazon at its own game.
To be fair the arts & crafts movement priced itself out of the mainstream.
***edit: why tf am I being downvoted for sharing objective fact about the Arts & Crafts movements at the turn of the century? While it transitioned into more of an upscale art in Britain, it did transition into more mainstream mission style in America, yet ultimately World War 1 ended the Arts & Crafts movement in both nations. Eff you turds for downvoting objective fact you anti-intellectual turds. I’m as progressive and anti-corporate as it gets, you undereducated morons.
***edit 2: the parent comment to mine from iamnotafish with 109 upvotes is unequivocally wrong. British/American society did have those problems in the mid-1800s. The Arts & Crafts movement directly intentionally arose as a humanistic pushback against that exact sort of corporate dehumanization.
So here we have an example of a common .ml and others of the tankie triad technique. Come in, make a big fuss about something and the evils of capital society, then bail when they get pushback, in this case even deleting the account.
There is still plenty of room for more artistry in the products we buy. However, companies would rather report 3.01 EPS and have happy shareholders and less happy customers than 2.98 EPS and unhappy shareholders and happy customers, because they didn’t want to spend a few extra pennies here and there.
That artistry still exists but it costs more. The “products we buy” are cheap mass maufactued products that sell to a broad market. It’s not just a pennies here and there difference.
Although, that can be a reason cheap products become basically disposable and that’s completely lame, agreed.
I 100% guarantee that kind of company would lose customers doing that. Other kinds do add more and more stuff. Compare modern smartphones and cars to older ones.
For all it’s flaws, the present economy is actually very good at making exactly what people want to buy.
Don’t take this personally, but that’s bullshit.
Look at cars and phones as an example. Manufacturers decide what the customers want and then push it on us. No one asked for a phone that doesn’t have a replaceable battery, doesn’t have a headphone jack, has microbezels, is covered in glass so if you drop it you have to buy a new one, or you have to buy a case to wrap it in. No one asked for a car that is sending all of your data to the manufacturer, has a huge-ass touch screen that can’t be customized in any way, has features that don’t work while the car is in motion, lets your insurance company know when you accelerate too quickly, and plays ads when you are at a stoplight.
I’ve been looking at getting a new washer and even those are terrible and require connecting the appliance to a wireless network and installing an app on your phone to get full functionality.
There are VERY few manufacturers of anything out there that actually give a shit about what the consumer really wants, and instead will provide the minimum needed to get the consumer to buy while providing the maximum return for investors.
Consumers are far more cost conscious than they say. A lot of consumers will go for a cheaper product rather than pay more for certain options.
It is the reason why most planes aren’t first class only. The majority of flyers would rather have a cheaper ticket than leg room.
Okay, so this got long, but only because you made so many separate points.
Pretty much necessary for waterproofing, makes the design a bit simpler, and most people DGAF about e-waste.
All aesthetic features that are popular, even if people aren’t aware of where the wow comes from exactly.
The headphone jack is the only forced example here.
You’re not the customer, and most people have no problem with being the product. Which is really dumb of them, but true.
It’s still a new enough trend that I’m not sure where it sits, but it does come with the advantage of displaying whatever menus you want really directly.
Liability, I assume.
Again, you’re not the customer.
Ditto. Most consumers either don’t know/care or actually like whatever shitty “smart” feature. And aren’t tracking their cybersecurity very closely.
In a nutshell:
I don’t want to create an entire thread arguing because I believe that you value your viewpoints as much as I value mine, but I think this might be the main area where our viewpoints diverge because when I’m buying something, then yes, I am the customer. And when I buy something then my expectation is that I will then own that something and I will do with it as I please.
Yeah. That wasn’t a normative statement, just a descriptive one. We should be the customer, we just economically aren’t. I bet you and me buy the same kind of stuff.
The points I was arguing against in OP are that everything is built worse than it used to be, and that it’s because some group can just decide so unilaterally for personal gain. Some stuff is worse, some stuff is better, but it’s true that regulations haven’t kept pace with technology this century.
deleted by creator
Nothing you typed is true. Bob Robertson is right about every point. And I will piggyback off of him and continue to prove him right and you wrong if necessary.
Nothing is being produced for the consumer anymore. We are the Mark. I broke a little plastic gear for turning the chute on my snowblower and cannot buy a 30¢ chunk of replacement plastic. They told us the internet being recategorized as a luxury service instead of a utility service would improve service. It’s gone up in price 5-10x in the fifteen years since, Sucka. Everything is trying to transition you to a subscription service so you will own nothing and be happy, Sucka. Stop carrying water as a useful idiot, Sucka.
lol…yes, that is why enshitification is a word. Why a car manufacturer adding buttons back to their next model again made headlines. Also, try Chipotle today vs Chipotle 10 years ago, 20 years ago. sorry, but calling bullshit on this one.
That’s not really a fair rubric. If they add unnecessary stuff it’s bloat, if they don’t it’s cynical cost cutting.
If you were buying your own Chipotle 20 years ago I assume you know what I mean about old cars with manual everything and maybe a radio. The economy cars of the 20th century aren’t even around for me to experience anymore, because they literally fell apart!
I’m still driving mine and would be very reluctant to swap it for a modern enshittified car. I sometimes think of homebrewing my next car (DIY EV conversion of an older ICE car) rather than put up with any manufacturer’s offerings. Who knows.
Good for you. What model?
I’d love it if I ever got the opportunity to experience one. It was kind of a significant thing for a while.
So, how about planned obsolescence then?
What about it?
All I said is that they build what people will buy. Sometimes, people are short-sighted about what they buy. And maybe more importantly, landfilling is totally free in most cities, and externalities are not something markets handle well. That’s also why we’re making one-use containers out of our most permanent materials.
People absolutely did that stuff way back when, too. Incandescent lightbulbs are a debated but famous example.
They had to literally turn off Edison’s incandescent bulb. That was before planned obsolescence (see Vance Packard’s The Waste Makers) https://www.remodelormove.com/is-the-original-edison-bulb-still-working/
Yeah, exactly. The early ones lasted a really long time. The debate is about how necessary making them shorter lived was exactly. It definitely happened though, and definitely did so before any of us were born.
There’s probably an even older example, but commercial history before 1850 is pretty niche.
Bob Robertson explains my point better than I feel like typing at this time lol. He’s spot on. Also, I worked as a project manager for the product owners that make these types of decisions. Everything I relayed was from experience. Edit: I will add, look at people like musk that proudly proclaim “i do no market research” and then look at the cybertruck.
Eh, it was a bit too detailed honestly. I doubt that was deliberate, though, and I did respond in full.
Musk is an outlier. He also bought Twitter and basically put it through a woodchipper, including getting rid of the very well-recognised brand and executing a domain transition that left it semi-broken for months. Most CEOs and most boards have some semblance of sanity.
Hey friend, you bring up very good points, and i was making a broad generalization. But, did the arts & craft movement really price themselves out, or were they undercut by the same types of shenanigans that we see today by these evil corporations? We’re on the same side, let’s not be divisive.
Yes, there was broad appeal for fine handcrafted goods after the Industrial Revolution, so much that craftsmen were successful enough to make better livings selling higher-priced goods, just as it is today. It was a bit ironic that the Arts & Crafts movement started out “for the people / against industrialization” but soon became high-priced goods for the affluent.
Sounds like they got greedy, huh? Money corrupts.
Or they spent more time on a single piece.
Ah, ok. So, they could work on say, one big piece of something for a rich person and stretch it out for a year, versus doing 6-12 for people over the same period of time?
Yes, top craftsmen would get deeper into their craft for their own personal interests and their previous commercial success afforded them the luxury to become more like—or essentially—fine artists.
Interesting. Thanks for the education and conversation!
Your edits make me want to downvote you way more than the initial comment does.
hey man you go ahead and do whatever makes you feel smug n superior inside
No legitimately you’re whining so much about fake internet points and it couldn’t have been after more than a downvote or 2. Just like…care less what other people think dude. It’s fake internet point. It doesn’t matter.
I had seven dislikes from stablegeniuses mad about objective history, go be smug n stablegenius somewhere else plz. I don’t care about dislikes, I’m pissed about straightup Idiocracy, frito.
Calling others smug is clearly projection at this point.
You’ve come across as an unpleasant person and earned every down vote.
Bro I typed that the Arts & Crafts movement priced itself out of the mainstream.
So sorry this happened to you, I hope you can someday recover from this trauma.
Cool story.
Should have left it at that instead of getting all triggered over a couple downvotes.
Okaydokay Frito Pendejo.
I don’t know who tf you are but I’m guessing you’re a whiteboy midwit to assume you’re in any position in life to tell me how I should behave. Because you’re not in any position to tell me how to behave, stablegenius. Do better.
Come on guys, I looked at both of your comment histories and you both appear to be on the same side, please don’t argue. Also, Grass Cat, LandedGentry has a good point with calling everyone turds lol.
@[email protected] , are you also from the land of JD Vance? Saw a comment about CCW no longer being required in your state.
You’re right, this is silly. Appreciate it.
And negative on Vance Land - Louisiana. Very similar gun culture lol
Oh, I’m sure. And i’m sure we have very similar people in general. Thanks!
Lemmy can suck like that. If you post something that can be misconstrued outside of our tiny Overton window, you get downvotes. Lots and lots of downvotes.
Yes. They shouldn’t even have to purity test like in the second sentence.
We progressives are great at purity tests. IMO it’s part of the reason big tent populists do better than us.
Turn off downvotes for yourself. Much better experience. I never know unless someone is rude then I block them.
My guess is that it’s because Arts & Crafts is a foundational form of modernism and is thus kinda the opposite, stylistically speaking, of carving ornate feet like OP pictured.
Nah bro. In the US arts & crafts morphed into mission style, which was just straight flat planks at right angles for practical purposes, which I believe is what you are referencing. As I’d mentioned above, in Britain arts & crafts veered heavily toward the affluent with its high craftsmanship. Arts & Crafts also developed into the ornate art styles of Art Nouveau and Art Deco.
Those are still modernism! They may be more ornate than than a Mondrian painting or something, but they sure aren’t “ball and claw foot” ornate.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arts_and_Crafts_movement :
Also, for that matter, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Nouveau :
Jfc your links agree with everything I’ve typed here. I know justabit about modern art movements. And that foot carving pictured in my opinion is strongly reminiscent of nouveau/deco sculpture and imagery.
Did they? People want to spend $100 on a chair, but a nice carved and finished one by hand will take 20 hours to make and $50 in supplies.
I wouldn’t say they priced themselves out, it’s more that you can’t economy-of-scale a small business in your living room. You can’t beat Amazon at its own game.