Issue polls show that everyone wildly approves of progressive policies but they hate progressive people. If you can solve that I’d vote for you for president.

You sealed the fate of the remaining people living there.

You have no data at all on that-- thats just a self serving hope to service your political ends. Biden let the zionists do whatever far right warcrimes they wanted, whenever they wanted, as much as they wanted. He didnt even defend the UN, journalists, aid workers or the Americans killed there. He continues to actively break the Leahy laws amongst many others. I am hopeful that since Trump and his followers are antisemites, maybe he wont be as bad as Biden/Harris. See? I can have self serving hopes exactly the same as you can.

All Biden/Harris offered were words that didnt match their actions and toothless red lines that were memory holed when Netenyahu laughed at them and bypassed them. Other presidents ended the same events with a simple phone call. So your painting of Biden/Harris as supportive of Palestinians is over the top ridiculous.

I’m also hopeful that some president after trump will sign onto the ICC treaty so we can ship Trump and Biden to the Hague for the prison sentence they are so richly overdue for.

that I can absolutely agree with. Its refreshing to hear someone put forth multiple reasons-- everyone wants to zero in on just 1, which is human nature, I guess.

It was about Gaza for a lot of us. Shall we stop pretending it was about the economy either? Shall we stop pretending Biden had some of the lowest approval polls on record for a president going into reelection and that Harris couldnt put together any departure from Bidens ideas? While we’re at it lets all pretend Biden was one of the all time greatest presidents, regardless of his approval ratings.

Any other realities you want us to “stop pretending” about, in order to make you feel better?

Its possible she had no chance even with a perfect campaign.

I dont think thats a reasonable assumption at all.

I think you’re just not ready to admit that the campaign had any flaws at all yet.

DNC leadership should be tied to the track.

This metaphor has always been poor. Trains are locked on tracks. Harris’s campaign could have steered away from biden and his low approval rating, distance from the voters, and genocide, at any moment she wanted to. She wasnt locked on tracks. She chose to steer toward the right the entire last month of her campaign, losing a trickle of voters from her base every single day. She chose to steer away from addressing peoples complaints about reduced buying power instead of sympathizing with them. She chose to say she’d put republicans on her staff if elected, and listen to their ideas. She chose to take the AIPAC bribes. She wasnt at all locked on tracks and being forced to take that money. No one did this TO her. She did it to us.

Pretending she had no choices in order have someone else to blame for her choices is a really unfortunate takeaway, and dooms the party to continuing to think in ways that will lose. The massive unpopular – historically so even-- incumbent lost. Thats what happened.

All these people on these threads blaming it on the voters when Harris had it in her power to run a different campaign is just lazy. Harris not only had a brake she could pull to stop the “trolley”, she had a damned steering wheel to steer completely away from running people over, and she made a choice not to. Dont blame the peasants for shit leadership.

Every single swing state lost. Both congress and the house lost. Thats a badly out of touch party, not stupid voters.

Its the DNC’s fault. They ran a masterclass on how to lose to a dementia afflicted fascist clown.

yep, warm up those money printers. And too bad for anyone who has saved a nestegg for retirement-- thats all getting watered down now. ah well.

Calm down? Was my saying we now have 4 years to ponder this deeply something that sounded rushed to you? Time to avail myself of that handy “block user” button.

I am really wondering if comments will start being unsafe with a lessened expectation of free speech continuing and revenge being the new normal. Im going to start a new account thats not linked to my email address. I’d suggest everyone else do the same.

Sure, Bud.

We are all a bit stunned, but we have 4 years to think about what happened and why. Lets not just jump to an easy conclusion on hour 1 day 1.

Today we’re all clowns.

She was doing better than the old white guy she replaced though

Was she really though? She couldnt identify a single thing she’d do differently than Biden, who has a truly remarkable and historic level of low approval.

The holocaust branded with trump’s name

Uh, no thats not true at all. Harris Biden and the DNC are 100% oboard with the genocide too. Are we collectively pretending thats not true anymore, so that we dont have to learn any lessons from it?

Personally I think your perception is part of a larger problem of a breakdown in communication and education, where people automatically assume the worst of everyone’s intentions because of either experience with other bad actors

Thats a fair accusation. Theres often a lot of bad faith in these communications, so if you are coming from a place of good faith and are here to learn, I apologize, and I’ve added a bunch of history links to my original comment, so you can interpret the history yourself.

Israel has been keeping Palestinians in a brutal and murderous apartheid state and brutalizing them for 80 years-- imprisoning them indefinitely without charges too. But you want to question what the oppressed do and why, as if it was mysterious. I’m having a hard time beleiving you when you say you want this explained to you, but I suppose I’ll take it at face value and hope for the best.

If you truly want to understand this stuff, start with a deep dive-- several actually, into history. Start with the jewish-roman wars to understand the zionist/zealot motivations. At this point the original states of Israel were 1000 years gone, having weakened themselves with civil war over taxation, then plundered and abosrbed by the neo-babylonians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish–Roman_wars

From there you’ll want to look at the expansion of the ottoman empire and jewish place in it, and how they were governed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire This overlapped with the crusades. I recommend “empires of the sea” by crowley. Crucial in there is how the Ottoman empire depended on slaves to function, but their religion only allowed them to get slaves by capturing them in battle, and it forbade muslims from trading in slaves thesmelves, but allowed buying them. Hence the birth of slave traders as a caste, who were foriegn, and became largely a jewish group. This understandably was not well received back in Europe, where the slaves came from. The ottomans almost totally depopulated the mediteranean coasts gathering slaves. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-13260-5_14 Toward the end of the ottoman empire (it was an 800 year empire), they officially tolerated muslims as slave traders. (Progress?)

You can also read up on how jews participated in and were persecuted in the crusades, and draw some conclusions as to why and how that played out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_the_Crusades#:~:text=In the First Crusade%2C Jewish,Jews in France suffered especially.

Then move on to jewish presence in the region during the ottoman empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey

Read up on how jewish expulsions from european countries came about because of christianities Vix pervenit. Theres a lot there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_pervenit

See how because of medeival views of usury, Jews were ejcted by monarchs in europe as a way to justify seizing their assets, only to allow them back a bit later and starting the process over https://humsci.stanford.edu/feature/stanford-historian-explores-how-expulsions-became-widespread-medieval-europe

From there you can end up in the start of WW2, the jewish holocaust, and then Haganah and Irgun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

Partition, the UN creating a state of Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

Israel’s leadership thoughts at the time: https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/

From there, the Nakba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

The six day war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War The USS liberty incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

The first and second intifada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada

Oslo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_I_Accord

The creation of hamas by Israel to thwart the PLO peace plans and two state solution https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

9/11 and Osama bin laden, and the use and weaponization of his logic by western powers https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/miller.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/the-dangerous-logic-used-to-justify-killing-civilians/374886/

The rise of indefinite administrative detention https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435

https://apnews.com/article/prison-israel-palestinians-administrative-detention-e4ffd1744a9692c2539a78a8d916176e

Storming of al aqsa mosque on oct 4 2023 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/4/israeli-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-mosque-complex-on-fifth-day-of-sukkot

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/08/1204545845/how-the-al-aqsa-mosque-became-a-flashpoint-in-the-israel-palestine-conflict

October 7 2023 attacks https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67039975

The use of the hannibal directive https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/

You can google and read a lot about the negoatiations and doubts for whether Netenyahu wanted to negotiate for the release of hostages at all, and the Israelis protesting his lack of interest in getting the hostages back. You can also look at settler groups auctioning off peices of gaza, and now lebanon.