In terms of modern ideological dogmaticism? No. Pragmatically I think it’s possible to get very close. History has proven that. “Class” has never been a necessary construct. It’s always negative, hurtful, and exclusionary. Statewise, it’s always been more against nation state and to smaller extents even city-states. Large overarching structures. Keep in mind I’m coming out this from an actual Dejacque libertarian / anarco communist leftist perspective. Governance isn’t the enemy. Just large overpowerful bodies with concentrated power.
My problem with this, is that organized groups have always advantage over disorganized groups, whether in crime or in legit manufacturing/services. You have neverending growth of these groups into social classes. The closer you want to get to classless society, the harder and more oppressive you have to go against that social phenomena. And I’ve never seen a good explanation who would enforce the laws keeping the society close to that “classless” state
My problem with that is that it isn’t about disorganization. That is a fundamental and widely perpetuated piece of misinformation about what anarchism / communism actually are. Anarchists can organize just fine. Now if what you want to argue is that detached highly concentrated power is capable of ordering atrocities and enforcing people to commit the atrocities in their name? Then yes they absolutely have the advantage. But in terms of actually doing the business of the people and governing. No there is no advantage. In fact it’s often a disadvantage. Being insulated from the needs of those they govern and the effects of the poor policy they put in place. It’s antithetical to good government.
Now if what you want to argue is that detached highly concentrated power is capable of ordering atrocities and enforcing people to commit the atrocities in their name? Then yes they absolutely have the advantage.
I’m not talking about just the atrocities. I’m talking bare economic efficiency - bunch of organized people are doing things faster and with lower amount of effort - and they will inevitably use that advantage to increase their standards of living. Suddenly you have an inequality.
Of course this issue encompasses also efficiency of criminal activity - organized crime pays more than not organized crime.
But the end result in both cases is the same - some people are better off than others
In short I strictly disagree with the statement:
in terms of actually doing the business of the people and governing. No there is no advantage.
It is a literal organizational structure. Just a very flat one. You are using a colloquial malapropism. Not the actual definition/understanding of the ideology.
I’m not talking about just the atrocities. I’m talking bare economic efficiency
Economic efficiency is literal atrocity. Which is more economically efficient. To responsibly extract resources and pay fair value for it. Or to oppress and steal to obtain resources? Cobalt mining in the Congo as it exists, exists because of economic efficiency. It is advantageous and efficient for the company’s buying it that there is no government power there to oppose them. Instead buying from Regional Warlords and child slaves mining it. They don’t have to worry about safety regulations etc etc etc or any other externalities of the mining actions. Very efficient. Also an atrocity.
Anarchism is about consent. People can consent to organize. There’s nothing prohibiting it. Is it quicker or easier to organize people without their consent by force? Absolutely. Is it good? That’s the argument you’re making. Might makes right. Brutal, authoritarian dictatorship is very efficient, economic and otherwise. There’s a reason people don’t like it.
I suggest you actually look into what the ideology of anarchism is. And not just go with the pop culture/ angsty teen definition.
You’re conflating organization and collaboration with oppression and hierarchy. It’s not “no rules” it’s “no rulers” and likewise you don’t get your anarchism membership revoked when you hold the door open for someone.
In fact, anarchists are very much about collectivism over individualism. No one is free until everyone is free.
Question: Do you think that stateless and classless society is sustainable and won’t evolve into a regular one?
In terms of modern ideological dogmaticism? No. Pragmatically I think it’s possible to get very close. History has proven that. “Class” has never been a necessary construct. It’s always negative, hurtful, and exclusionary. Statewise, it’s always been more against nation state and to smaller extents even city-states. Large overarching structures. Keep in mind I’m coming out this from an actual Dejacque libertarian / anarco communist leftist perspective. Governance isn’t the enemy. Just large overpowerful bodies with concentrated power.
My problem with this, is that organized groups have always advantage over disorganized groups, whether in crime or in legit manufacturing/services. You have neverending growth of these groups into social classes. The closer you want to get to classless society, the harder and more oppressive you have to go against that social phenomena. And I’ve never seen a good explanation who would enforce the laws keeping the society close to that “classless” state
My problem with that is that it isn’t about disorganization. That is a fundamental and widely perpetuated piece of misinformation about what anarchism / communism actually are. Anarchists can organize just fine. Now if what you want to argue is that detached highly concentrated power is capable of ordering atrocities and enforcing people to commit the atrocities in their name? Then yes they absolutely have the advantage. But in terms of actually doing the business of the people and governing. No there is no advantage. In fact it’s often a disadvantage. Being insulated from the needs of those they govern and the effects of the poor policy they put in place. It’s antithetical to good government.
Organized anarchism isn’t anarchism anymore.
I’m not talking about just the atrocities. I’m talking bare economic efficiency - bunch of organized people are doing things faster and with lower amount of effort - and they will inevitably use that advantage to increase their standards of living. Suddenly you have an inequality.
Of course this issue encompasses also efficiency of criminal activity - organized crime pays more than not organized crime.
But the end result in both cases is the same - some people are better off than others
In short I strictly disagree with the statement:
It is a literal organizational structure. Just a very flat one. You are using a colloquial malapropism. Not the actual definition/understanding of the ideology.
Economic efficiency is literal atrocity. Which is more economically efficient. To responsibly extract resources and pay fair value for it. Or to oppress and steal to obtain resources? Cobalt mining in the Congo as it exists, exists because of economic efficiency. It is advantageous and efficient for the company’s buying it that there is no government power there to oppose them. Instead buying from Regional Warlords and child slaves mining it. They don’t have to worry about safety regulations etc etc etc or any other externalities of the mining actions. Very efficient. Also an atrocity.
Anarchism is about consent. People can consent to organize. There’s nothing prohibiting it. Is it quicker or easier to organize people without their consent by force? Absolutely. Is it good? That’s the argument you’re making. Might makes right. Brutal, authoritarian dictatorship is very efficient, economic and otherwise. There’s a reason people don’t like it.
I suggest you actually look into what the ideology of anarchism is. And not just go with the pop culture/ angsty teen definition.
You’re conflating organization and collaboration with oppression and hierarchy. It’s not “no rules” it’s “no rulers” and likewise you don’t get your anarchism membership revoked when you hold the door open for someone.
In fact, anarchists are very much about collectivism over individualism. No one is free until everyone is free.